EU Tour #7 Strong product teams with Baf Kurtulaj and Matthew Fitzgerald

spk_0:   0:15
I have one. And welcome to another episode from the product coalition European Tour. I'm in Cardiff for the bonus card. If Siri's where Today I'm really excited to be joined by Baff Cutler on DH Matthew Fit Show. Welcome, gents. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Great

spk_1:   0:31
to be here. Thank you for invitation J

spk_0:   0:33
Absolutely absolute pleasure. Now, before we get stuck into the topic off how everyone in a strong product team should be product people first. I do need Teo. Teo, give some thank you's so the first thank you need to give is to do pole dot co for the introductions to all of the guests here in in guard If do po is a global online survey provided that has recently switched to a play for value model men and you can get started with the real time Multilingual embedded bull surveys for free today. Just go to do pole dot co. That's d double o p o l a dot com Now this tour and every single episode from the tour is dedicated to raising awareness and support for the Bush for affected communities, wildlife and volunteer firefighters in Australia. So if you enjoy the show or any of the podcast episodes on the product Coalition European Tour, please consider supporting those causes that Bush fired up. Product coalition dot com I'm visiting five cities across you Europe to interview of 50 product leaders like Bath and Matthew here today to gain insights, knowledge and experience to share you the global product coalition community. And if you've just joined us, welcome. We're a community of over 500,000 readers, 6000 slack members and thousands of podcast listeners. Now, before we get stuck into the episode, also need to recognise and thank some brands and individuals that have been significant donors to the causes that I've mentioned so far. User Pilot is a code for a user on Borden adoption Tour, designed especially for product management teams. Use a pilot helps to increase conversion user retention rates and reduce churned by guiding new users to their first ah ha moment with interactive walk throughs contextual product to us on on boarding checklists. Last product managers to build fully customizable behaviour triggered in AP experiences with a simple visual editor. Go to use a pilot dot com to book your demo and get a free trial show bit. Cheuk is the intentional product manager, a Google product manager, and he helps product managers become product leaders on have careers. They could be proud ofthe head to intentional product manager dot com and sign up for Schaub. It's free class on the habits that turn product managers into exceptional product leaders and help them move through their careers. Fast product led teams like Mixed Pan on Flex Point know that the best times capture engagement is when a user is already inside the product. That's why they use chameleons, dr. Feature Adoption, build on boarding flows and gather user feedback. We can give it a go at tri chameleon dot com forward slash success to other individuals. I'd like to thank Rich mere enough, and Chris Miles Gents, we can't some fun there. So in the podcast episodes, we have a nice breakfast to start. So Mel, when it was a local guide to Melbourne in Sydney one, it was a bit of a pub quiz for the European tour. I tried to go city or country specific, so the game today is called. Is it Welsh or No? All right, so first up. I'll go one inch. I've got two products here for you. So that the 1st 1 Is it Welsh or not? Powered flight that invented in wows or

spk_1:   3:34
no, Never heard ofthe. So I'm not

spk_0:   3:39
powered flight like aeroplanes?

spk_1:   3:44
Possibly. But I'm not so

spk_0:   3:45
sure I can't say for so just you know. No, I don't think so. Anyway, how come? Who do you think? I thought it was the right brothers. Yep. And so had I, to be honest, but my trusty friend Ian And it says Bill Frost, a carpenter from Saunders for in South wows, was seen flying 500 yards or 457 metres in demonic in a plane made by himself in 18 96. He patented his invention but was too poor to renew the Peyton. Two years later, the Wright Brothers officially made aviation history. Power of painting, even back when we got the

spk_1:   4:27
actual intellectual property office is actually based well

spk_0:   4:31
said right. That's so anything that is painted these days in UK

spk_1:   4:36
ends up in South Wales.

spk_0:   4:43
Next one is what we now know. And I'll direct this one to you, Matthew. First off. So the toaster Welsh or no, That's a good one on DH. I don't know. So I'm going to say yes it is. Yes,

spk_1:   4:59
I would say yes. Yeah, it's got to be something right that is made of Wales.

spk_0:   5:04
Is it the Welsh rarebit of cheese on toast? Concept that might drive That decision? Could be things the most famous toast. So apparently, no, it's Scottish. Alan McMasters, the Scotsman who invented the first, is the first who invented the first electric toaster born in Edinburgh. Developed the electric toaster way back in 18 93. What's interesting about that was it was invented A for 35 years before the invention of sliced bread. Wow. I guess. All right, like next up, we've got a little bit test on your own language. Are you speaking, Hiroshi? No, no,

spk_1:   5:51
I'm not a while speaker, but I could save my son. Definitely not serving, you know. And also my daughter.

spk_0:   6:00
We'll see if you're paying attention to their social linguistic studies. I

spk_1:   6:04
can tell you a couple of phrases, but that's about it.

spk_0:   6:07
All right, well, let's see if you know these ones. So, first up, we've got Spawn Ken spunk in now the question here is Sorry, I forgot to introduce this bit. Is did I invent that word or is it Welch? Invention Come out. Spunk in up. Could be. Maybe one for a game. Ah, well, in a world where Microsoft on microwaves pop keeping, I think you can't very well not made that I think is true. So, Matthew, you do get a point. It's true. Spunk in means squash the sport. Well, yeah, we got it right, The next one. So did I make this up this morning, or is it a Welsh word? I gotta get my pronunciation almost sounding world, but work gac gotta,

spk_1:   7:05
um probably wash. Well, sure. What kind?

spk_0:   7:10
What do you think it is? Contracts? Adults? No, outside. I don't know what it means that it's something about the guy in the middle of it. Yeah, making me think it might be a real would Give it away. Right. Okay. You'd be right. It means Lady Bird. But apparently the literal translation means little red cow. No count. Very guy. Very guy. Okay, let's let's get stuck into the episode, and we're gonna be talking about how everyone in strong in a strong product product management team should be product people first. Before we do you mind sharing your individual product storeys? I found your context of your road into product. So maybe back to stop you.

spk_1:   7:54
Yeah, absolutely. My journey to product management comes through a path off for engineering path. I went Teo Cardiff University computer science degree. From there, obviously, in my career started software JIA and quickly right right off the bat realise that enterprise products based project that I was involved let had lot off. You know it. We were building software for for enterprise users, but those users were not completely using, you know, software products in a effective way. And then clearly gradually, you quickly pick that. You know, the skills that you need to brush up, on and off. Which was the other side ofthe off who were building products for which is that the real uses understanding them and clearly what there was a need for me to then brush up low skills and did a career break went back. University didn't masters in Business administration administration with management that gave me the sticks of two sided view on straight off the path and the companies I work for was the rolls were much suited for me to to be on a plane on the product management side, which I've done ever since. Right and test it

spk_0:   9:44
testing and where you now before.

spk_1:   9:47
Right now I I I I found it. A product first consultancy called Product Labs that Prague Labs is a partners with progressive companies to build a world class product management capabilities. Digital success in practical terms. What that means is we help companies adopt modern product management. Best practises for the new digital world we live in. It's it's initiative that has been running for several months now. Prior. That's off. See, I found it. Product Tank Cardiff Which tank is one of the largest product tech communities in the world? As you probably know, J. And yes, it's been it's Wales is go to product in tech community where we all get together and talk products. How we built great products that you love you

spk_0:   10:59
love it and message. Mind sharing your storey. Sure, So my early career was in the military of surveillance team detachment Commander Don't rack done a few tours of Iraq and Afghanistan and then decide it's probably time to move into the private sector. D risk my life a little bit, I think absolutely so. My path was similar to baths. I started in software engineering and a large enterprise. We were launching our capabilities in the UK when most of the software engineer who was happening overseas. It's through that process. We identified a need for somebody to be the customer body within the organisation. On the roll, it progressed from there. I didn't even realise I was a product manager for the first year or two right following from there, went into some starters, then a couple of literally through there on DH. Now I'm working for LexisNexis Risk solutions. Where is a senior product manager? Also brilliant. What's exciting is I had a really good podcast recording with Anthony Murphy in Sydney, who's also the nation's first career win. The Australian military and some really interesting insights that shaped his perception of product management as a craft and industry and also general leadership. So really looking forward to hearing, um, since I'm more from you. Okay, so So pick is about in strong product teams everyone should be should be product people or have a product mindset. Could you could you get us going back? From what? What are your thoughts on on this topic?

spk_1:   12:33
Good. It's It's very interesting. A question open question there. J S O. If you look at the progression off Project management as a discipline and how long you know where it had, you know, word wass in Lost Decade versus where it is today and what is gonna look like a next endures. It's come a long way. A discipline, Um, always. It's been almost like a lot of people who were involved predominately in the settings off large enterprises or even medium size companies. Always has been a afterthought off. We have a product person, and but that role has never kind of bean hole holistically, sort of defined where the value out of that person would be. So if you look at 10 last 10 years, it's been about proper management. Discipline has come a long way. That is, thank thanks to the democratisation off my job. Methodology is a whole delivering software shipping software very fast. Tio Tio uses. I'm through the role of part owner, and yet within the I dropped methodologies possibly Alka Bally thiss my opinion. It's one of the best innovations from, uh, meant management innovations, possibly since early 19 eighties. And why I say this is because building software it's also that that itself has come a long way but always has been complex. It's a complex, sort off, more discipline. So, um, if we look at it now from a perspective cos I want to be product lad and have seen how some ofthe companies who potentially work within their instead of same a marketplace, they have two really readjust and re adopt, too and create Put the product management as a dissident ride the court what they do. This is how I would sort of describe, you know, the value creation off product management, white, white, white companies to really, um, think and shift into product management, you know, operate models. Um, how that's my assessment to where we were and where we are. I think the next decade is going to be a lot more exciting about around this discipline on value that will create for companies as a whole. What do you think?

spk_0:   15:43
Issue is, I absolutely agree. So over the past couple of months. I've been doing some research into the me, the main drivers buying product management over the last couple of years on something So I came across. Which was quite surprising, is that there's a study done by I believe it was Deloitte. So they looked at the top companies listed on the American Stock Exchange. Andi. Those that have a very solid product discipline and using things like the design thinking frameworks to develop their products have 60% higher stock value than those that don't know. So I think it's that demonstrates, in its own right the value of having a good product discipline within the company can bring. Where do you think that needs to start for for business that you turn this off sleep coin in front around quite a lot, particularly last 12 months, He's being product lead. So what? What for a company that's decided this morning, right? We're gonna be product lead. What does that mean? What was I doing different tomorrow? If that's their person,

spk_1:   16:42
it's It's interesting that terminology is coined a long time, but what That, in my view, what that means is nothing more than putting your product at the core off what you do, and you drive everything else from there and on the other way around. And what I mean by the other way around is you create a company, which then you bring about functions, which then each function operates total silos. And yet you have this product that you really are there to sell and service. And yet you are disjointed what the product is and what really tangible value week waiting for the end users who in turns are paying their wages. And I think it's a mindset that needs to be shifted. Um, and this is what actually product lead. Cos this how I would personally define through my experience of 13 years building, you know, and Price and consumer based products, this's what is at stake. It's the way they operate. They've used to operate versus two. How now they need to operate if they want to, um, be still playing in those verticals.

spk_0:   18:12
Yes, I think there's something which you mentioned to me when we met for coffee a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about There's a lot of births. Word's getting thrown around at the moment. Innovation Digital transformation, and it's not really any of that. This is about people transformation, right? It's about educating your employees. This is your product on, Really understand what drives it. The core metrics at the heart of it and teach people how to understand them is certainly a very good starting point. Get it going?

spk_1:   18:42
Absolutely. I think it's a gun. It's also, uh, part of, uh, uh, part of why, or reasons why digital transformations really fail and they fail in 80%. Ranges are purely because of that, you know, and the fact that it's it's people transformation, not digital transformation. This is what I would call and say, you know, and of course, products. Where are the core of Fort off that organisation? That's what they really I do. And that's where value add for the users who are using Last product is or service,

spk_0:   19:26
what would you say is the difference for where the customers it's when products at the court first, he's when product isn't at the core.

spk_1:   19:35
Um, uh, again, a product has got to be built around users needs. Now. This is where an interesting sort of a conundrum comes in because you have a lot off agile teams that are predominant, focused on serving the stakeholders, needs within the business and not necessary serving their rial users. And this is what I would know only, uh, you know, this is where you have product centric suit teams which our feature teams essentially as opposed to saying, Look, the part team, the core purpose of that property Mr Served users needs. And yet, of course, serving the the stakeholders to is what they do but predominantly focus on the user's needs. Because if those things are met, then you clearly increase the chances off being more successful. This company, it's its's very simple is that in my experience that I've experienced in many cos teams that you also put together and run

spk_0:   21:01
so as a interesting experience that a large enterprise that's working for so we has a print out of the safe, scaleable, agile framework map on the wall on what's really interesting to look at it and you can almost play Where's Waldo with customers? Could you look at how some of these agile frameworks of being developed and you think this This could lead to large companies astray if they're really looking at becoming product focus and moving through digital transformation. Somebody says, Hey, why don't you give scaleable agile framework? A try could really set them down the wrong path if they're focusing too much on the processes and all of the apartments that sit around that customer and they can gloss over it very easily. If you could do cut in for the safe model, just just have a look at it. It's certainly interesting. Well, what always fine with those this Selling off those frameworks organisations is the person who's paying for the framework to be implemented is also very distant from the customer on. That's why that visual diagram resonates with them so well, typically being a CFO or someone, you know, very finance driven. Who needs to optimise? Let's say 5000 employees and the way things being delivered that diagram looks great for doing that. A supposed to someone from our world in the product spaces, very customer driven, as you say. Complaint was, was really for the for the customer in the

spk_1:   22:24
absolutely and you know it's that disconnect, isn't it? Further you are in a you know, layers to touch from your customer less you know about that customer show on. It's interesting because you have quite a few companies who've gone through this cycle where they only have put a very compelling case to change. When they see this, starts that drones off their customers are leaving products and switching for their competitors products. And it's it's it's, you know, it's an interesting sort of situation. Some companies who really don't pay much attention on customers from, you know, very earlier on how they find themselves completely outpaced by that competitive

spk_0:   23:17
wayward. Speaking about strong product teams on that, there's a few principles that I assume that you've come up with that you would use to recognise what strong product team is. You know what was sort of observations do you have on what a strong product would look

spk_1:   23:34
like? My personal view And this is again if we if we lied with the premise that we are all a product, people in a team and we all first and foremost understand where the cross disciplines off, off, off, off the roles we wear responsible for in input in producing the outcomes off the product we built, then I think that is the basis where we all start with essentially is almost like building home first have to build a foundation and also in that if you take a very you know strong product team oriented is made off product managers or product owner. It's made off Prague designers which play a key role. But also you have the engineers who essentially build the thing. And now if we just look at the some of, you know a life in, you know, a day in life, off a product team, you have a lot of flavours because everything is driven by the context of the organisation, the culture of that organisation. But predominantly, the principle that I personally have applied quite successful is too. I have this shared understanding that we are all part people first. And when I was predicated this, I had some interesting insights from people, um, engineers coming to me and say Oh, but you know, we've never had this before. No one has put it in this sort of in those terms before and and you see that there is a sense that they want you also have this common understanding off the customer itself. Understand? Knowing the customer. But how does how do is accompany How do you make money? How do you understand the business model, You know, and all of these are things that a real solid, product oriented a strong product team has tohave in order to be responsible. We understand the customers deeply, and we care about them and build the rights product and service around their customersneeds. I think this is a baseline model that certainly for me has had some very interesting impact. Again, I'm talking off experience. I'm not talking that I have a framework that works for all types of teams. But things like that, you know that you could, you could start to apply. And Andi have this kind of common shared understanding among the team and that dynamic, um, is critical.

spk_0:   26:39
It's what's interesting is what I said never seems to amaze me how many software engineers I speak to don't meet their customers and they feel that their major value driver towards the business is just the code, their rights and you know, it couldn't be further from the truth. You know, their outstanding problems soldiers. So it's just great when you get up here a customer problem with the software engineer. You all in a room and you can have an honest and frank discussion, and you find that these are the best solutions that get built is from those sorts of meetings. Instead of having this data chain right, it's

spk_1:   27:14
absolutely again, it's It's how you actually break the silos down because software engineer are incredible problem solvers. Uh, and if you break the silence down off, you know, and also up skill them to understand the business side of things, you get an amazing impact right away from the get go. That's the value for me, don't you think?

spk_0:   27:45
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's that you find their solution to delivered far faster, and they have a much larger impact than what they would have. Should have Bean developed in a silo isolated away for May. I mean, the ability to build empathy between the customer in the engineer gives gives them a reason to get up in the morning beyond the paycheck and tow the colleagues. It gives sense to dark. Absolutely.

spk_1:   28:09
If it is about purpose, this is it, you know, it's got to be about that aunt stand, Really, That we truly are making a difference. A tangible difference is what it's all about. And, you know, it separates people who really are passionate about their Crofts, as opposed to other people who just do their crafts and do it in ways that maybe doesn't resonate with value are good outcomes.

spk_0:   28:41
What are a few things that a product manager could do tomorrow to get? Is his or her engineering or U ex or whichever team it may be that they're working with close to the customer, Do you think to get to this shade product wanted? That is a very interesting question, and I guess it depends on the organisation in which they work. So with regulated markets, it might not be quite as straightforward as, maybe is with smaller firms. So for the smaller firms I've strongly recommends just phoning your customer, getting them in, you know, just having a cuppa tea coffee. Go to them on DH. Just take a couple of representatives with you know, it doesn't have to be a big fancy ordeal, you know. You bring them in and span fear can just be a very relaxed 1 to 1 meeting about, you know, just Hey, how things going. Tell us about the problems you have, which is ultimately the goal of a product team, isn't it? It's to solve problems, not write code with the larger enterprises. It isn't quite a straightforward because obviously, even in the best, there are a couple of layers, which you need to go through. So some of the tactics are employed in the past. Have bean to look ATT market intelligence reports to show them just a very, very high level. This is what is happening in the industry, and you understand the value that we're going to be delivering by solving these problems. So inside second is just a big bang have taken them into the room with the custard with a customer straightaway. So they're a bit like bunny and headlights. This breaking them into the mindset that actually, I'm not here just to write code. I'm here to solve problems and just a build up that in a desire to meet the customer and build a report, as you say, the empathy parts to solve those problems

spk_1:   30:19
obsolete. I could not agree more, and that's in regulated again environments. I work for one of the largest banks in Middle East running some off critical digital transformation projects for them and part ofthe mind. Also mention Is that how critical for engineer is to To to hear out how that how did those users are crying out for, um, for a very simple solutions that could be provided to them. And I had an instance myself where actually I would I would go and and listen to the course ofthe customers together insights that really are are, you know, transformative on how we bring about, you know, solutions that may not be its scale but could have that potential. And when I I kind of I was in this situation where we had gathered as much requirements, it's possible Andi was. The whole purpose of project was also to reduce the unbound colts. We were having our call centres and a new engineers that were in my team. We're you know, we're never they never have ever had had that opportunity to even contemplate, you know, to go and listen to what what users are are saying that they need. And then we run this experiment whereby way, got some good sample off calls and then we played back to the team, and the team's were team were Wow, you know, the penny dropped and we quickly came to rectify a very, you know, very, very interesting problem, which was a bottleneck, actually. And then the customer service was suffering from it, which we turned into a solution. I think it's you start from Arch, you know, start from understand your customers regardless too. Yes. In regulated environments such as banking and financial services, it's far less far less able to get closer to the customers. But actually, if you you know a place you well in the grit to get that to get to understand us customers better and get the riel data from them, you're able to really create solutions that impact that daily lives.

spk_0:   33:09
I certainly don't think I've ever run out of quality of inquiry. Session on brought engineers along that I've ever said that was a waste of time. Yeah, that everyone always learned something, even if it's about the individual in the room and what what your product means to them in their life, on how it's making a difference. Absolutely. It's always valuable, always valuable. Finally, how do you go about sharing back. The outcome's so we're talking about bringing them along the journey for building on delivering. But when you're reaching out comes what tactics do you use Teo? Share those back to all of the product teams. Teo Maintain that we're all pulling together and we are stealing in the right direction. Or know if that's the case.

spk_1:   33:55
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's all about actually focusing. Not necessary in shipping. But focusing on impact on DH clearly in practise, is it's it's traceable impact as oppose if yet you know, by shipping every so often, in fact, but generally the drove back off agile methodology as a hole in the way it's applied. Chu, you know, the companies apply, has created this other side's off, you know, problems, which is almost like the team's become feature factories, as opposed to be driven by real tangible value and impact. So this would I would I would say, you know, it's more, you know, understanding the rial customer start from lattes. Team has to have a shared understanding ofthe what that means. Um, you build a thing the right way, and then you drive that impact I think this would be the how I would sum it up.

spk_0:   35:19
Some of the ways which lead seems to do exactly that in the past is not just by looking at in a quantitative feedback, Boris. The quality of feedback as well so you can have thes repeat sessions when you start to set up in a customer ecosystem within your business is very easy to track these results. And, you know, this is put all of the analytics aside to do it platform analytics and active daily users. All of this stuff is great, but I found in my own personal experience, the best way to drive home. The impact is still get him back in the room and say, This is what you've done so working. We work here. Lots were to try and counter fraud in LexisNexis. And when you hear the storeys come back about the things which we've managed to stop on the success storeys, it really does have a profound impact on you to know that you know, the team built this and this is what you've done is like you. If you have made the world a safer place today because of this that's really important. I think that that comes down to the skill of storytelling. It's a product manager. I am being able to tell that storey so it moves the rest of the team off of the off of what's on the presentation in their hearts.

spk_1:   36:30
It is very important how you definitely, you know, tell its storey and impact through that way. And I think that needs to be done more and more and more teams because, you know, they also understand not only that lattes, but also as a team you for bonds. It's a team sport off to roll. You know, when you when you win a game as a team, you know, you know, you kind of take pride in winning. But also you can see you know what that means to the wider, you know, landscape that they operate on. So I think that's that's critical.

spk_0:   37:09
I think we'd all agree there's nothing really that moving about steering a dashboard and a little green line e you celebrate those burned down church only so many times before I get a little boring. Yes, thanks so much for this session has been awesome to shut to you both on DH talk for this on. I'm sure the audience listening his family's valuable. Um, I really appreciate you spending some time with me and Cardiff has been great. Thank you for having me,

spk_1:   37:36
J thank you very much. And person for most. Thank you for doing what you do, because I think you know, you just, you know, are doing great. Great job on actually putting poor management out there on DH equally, it takes a lot off. You know, you gots to do this, but also most important, thank you for putting Cardiff the centre ofthe no fewer European tour a Scott if is becoming a sort of hot tech bad. And I think, you know, you always are welcome to come back form or because they are so many talented product people here in South Wales.

spk_0:   38:21
My pleasure, My absolute pleasure. It's been great. Teo, spend some time over here and everyone's been awesome. To me, it's been 20 years. It's up into Cardiff and firing and enjoyed the last few days. And I also know howto ask someone for a game of squash which, well, George always helps go. That's the don't make friends over, so I'll let you make friends over squash. That's the impact. You know, you have to come to Wales. Brilliant. If you've enjoyed this episode, are any of the product coalition European Teo podcast episodes? Please do remember that I'm spending this time to try and raise awareness and race fans for the Australian Bush fire affected communities, wildlife and volunteer firefighters. You, Khun support those causes over a bushfire product coalition dot com. Thank you, Nephew. Thank you. It's been great. It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you all for listening. Until next time. Take care.