Product Coalition Product Management Podcast

EU Tour #4 First two months of going consulting with Matt Stone

March 18, 2020 Jay Stansell Season 4 Episode 4
Product Coalition Product Management Podcast
EU Tour #4 First two months of going consulting with Matt Stone
Cardiff Quiz
Jumping to consulting
Transition B/B to B/C
Working for yourself
The biggest barrier to make a switch
How to differentiate yourself as a consultant
Critique and respond to it
How to measure success as a consultant
What are the difficulties to work for yourself as a consultant
What was the biggest assumption that caught you out?
What is the next step?
Product Coalition Product Management Podcast
EU Tour #4 First two months of going consulting with Matt Stone
Mar 18, 2020 Season 4 Episode 4
Jay Stansell

Listen in as Jay Stansell and Matt Stone chat about First two months of going consulting.
To support the bushfire affected wildlife and communities of Australia that are mentioned in this episode head to

To get pre-release access to all Product Coalition podcasts, product management mentorship, product management interview practice, and product management resume reviews, visit

Support the show (

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Listen in as Jay Stansell and Matt Stone chat about First two months of going consulting.
To support the bushfire affected wildlife and communities of Australia that are mentioned in this episode head to

To get pre-release access to all Product Coalition podcasts, product management mentorship, product management interview practice, and product management resume reviews, visit

Support the show (

spk_0:   0:15
Welcome to another episode ofthe product Coalition European Teo Podcast Siris. Today I'm recording the very first in the secret. See Siri's further European tour on DH. The big reveal is I mean Cardiff. I mean, cardio remained stone. Welcome back. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to have you here. Well, I'm looking forward to these first Cardiff episode and we're gonna be talking about the 1st 2 months of going consulting. Yes, A notice is quite fresh to you. Very Yeah, that's going to get it's going to get. I'd like to give thanks to the thatwe stick cell right here in Cardiff. I've just done a tour and it's a great space. Whether you're in a start up, a scale up or looking teeth straightened up your business, I recommend checking out their website. Now, This tour and every single episode off the product coalition European tour is all dedicated to raising awareness on funds for the Bush fire affected communities. Wildlife of Australia. If you enjoy this episode, please show your support to these amazing causes by visiting bushfire dot product coalition dot com Or, if you'd like to know about the tour, is a whole head over to tour dot product coalition dot com. So originally visiting five cities. Six. With this bonus being being Cardiff on IM travelling to meet product leaders and professionals all around Europe to gain insights and knowledge on really share as much as I possibly can from these people back to the global community. Now, before we give a get started, I need to give a huge thanks to the following brains and individuals who have been major donors to the two fund raiser. First up, I've got use a pilot use. The pilot is a code for a user on boarding, an adoption tool designed especially for product management teams. He was a pilot, helps to increase conversion user retention rates and reduce churned by guiding new users to their first ah ha moment with interactive walk for his contextual product. Ear's on Boarding checklists allows product managers to build fully customizable behaviour triggered in AP experience of experiences. Sorry with a simple visual editor. Go to use the pilot dot com to book your demo and get a free trial. Thank you to use a pilot for detonation show. Big Chuck is the intentional product manager Schaub. It's a Google product manager, and he helps product, manages to become product leaders and have careers they could be proud off. Go to www dot intentional product manager that common sign up to show its free class on the habits that turn product managers into exceptional product leaders and help them move through their careers. Fast product led teams like Mixed Panel and Flex Point know that the best time to capture engagement is when a user is already inside the product. That's why they use Chameleon to Dr Feature adoption, build on boarding flows and gather user feedback. You can give that a go at tri chameleon dot com forward slash success two. Personal Thanks for May is Rich Marinoff and Chris Miles as well. Matt, we can get started. Let's do this. Let's do this. Okay. So on all of my podcast I've had this ice breaker in Sydney was ah, pub crazy mill when it was a local guide. Now for Cardiff, I've gone with Is it? Well, Sure, No. Okay, that's the name of the guy being washed my truck so that this is gonna be thoroughly enjoyable. Yeah, you obviously know. Not from Wells.

spk_1:   3:24
No, I'm not from Wales, but I've worked here for two years.

spk_0:   3:27
Yeah, right. Okay, that's good enough. Good enough. Okay, so the foot, we got two products first up and one is not really a prop, but anywhere. First up is the microphone. Is it Welsh or no God, invented by Roche, man or lady? Oh, no,

spk_1:   3:45
That sounds off cheese enough to betray. So I'm gonna get true.

spk_0:   3:48
True. You're right. According to my trusty source, the Internet, which says, of course, Edison invented the idea of a mark from when he placed the carbon telephone transmitter inside a telephone and therefore transmitting the voice. But David Edwards shoes from Bala Harp open up Internet correctly. We find the idea of a mark phone as a way off electronically transmitting an acoustic signal and paved the way for the motor mark phone that we're using today. There, we got right. All right. Next up, ese. The hour work. Die.

spk_1:   4:21
Gosh, um, I'll say false. Why? Um it just feels

spk_0:   4:29
like an American thing. America. You? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said wash Don't work hard. It'll definitely work. Yeah, Yeah. When they play hard work so hard, they would never want. And I added, Just give me some more hours not going home until under s. So you'd be right by saying it's not Welsh. It's actually Australian. That's interesting. In 18 56 the O Z stonemasons took action to ensure a standard eight hour working day, which then became recognised worldwide. If only there demanded a six hour workday instead. Quite quiet. But we actually celebrated in Victoria. We have Liberia, which is Ah, bank holiday to celebrate. I'm defining that on blast up. We've got some Welsh vocabulary. Oh, gosh. Is it a Welsh word or no? Okay. I'll try to insult anybody with this one in two years. I'm hoping that you've integrated yourself into the work. That side? Yeah. I'm really fluent. Order the road signs. Okay, first word is fungal. You know, like put on you're cuffing girl. Is that a Welsh word or is it? No,

spk_1:   5:37
I'm going to say not. A word

spk_0:   5:40
I don't know is why. Ah, um, you'd be correct. I made that up in the coffee shop this morning. That's very good. On the next one is a goody who?

spk_1:   5:51
Goody. I think street. Why? It's just ringing a bell somewhere.

spk_0:   5:55
Yeah. Yeah. Go cheque out the goody. Who? Yeah, you'd be correct. I guess it's Welsh for our okay. And what about, um, pick me up? Some move, please?

spk_1:   6:12
That signs false, but could well be true. I'm gonna gay. I'm gonna get false.

spk_0:   6:18
False. It's true. Move, please. Is Welsh for beads or a necklace guy every day. School day, Teo years in Cardiff. What? What's your favourite landmark wash? Favourite spot When you're in the city. Would you really enjoy? Well, did you enjoy being merciful?

spk_1:   6:35
Yeah. I mean, if you're you're a sports fan, there's two fantastic stadiums here. I think we were talking about the football team earlier. Weren't way. So yeah, looks great. Great sports atmosphere here. I think if you're not into sports is also a great arena here as well. They attract probably the best in the Southwest area in terms ofthe, you know, talents and big shows. That's not really another stadium like that for quite quite a large area. So, you know, if you're in the area, that's usually Cem Cem. Good acts to be

spk_0:   7:09
vegetables. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Right. Let's Let's get stuck into what's fresh for you the 1st 2 months of going consoling. Yeah. So could you give us a bit of a bit of your background, man? And before we talk about the last two months for you, What's happened before that? How did you get into product?

spk_1:   7:28
Yeah. Okay, so I actually started as a software engineer on DH. Been recovering ever

spk_0:   7:35
since. Right, S o. I spent, um, about 10 years working for General Electric on.

spk_1:   7:43
And during that time, I was doing all sorts of very heavy engineering. So wass software. But it was also hydro mechanical, electrical engineering, and it was a LL for equipment that would go on the sea bed, and it was used to help with oil extraction. So around oil rigs, very, very deep, Very specific technology taught me a lot about how engineering works not just within the software world, but outside of it and how those disciplines have to kind of work together. Um, I had an opportunity with those guys to basically go on a fast track into originally research and development management. So I was running projects for those guys or kind of based around large purchases that were being done by all companies. Um, on DH. During that time, I actually met another product manager. There happened to be working for these guys on DH. It was It was like an instant thing. I think a lot of product managers relate this where it was just like, That's That's me. That's what I want to be doing. So I basically spent the next five years just nagging them. Tio, let me become a product management ahs quickly as possible. And, you know, to their credit, they gave me a break and let me do it. I was the youngest product manager I think that they'd ever had at that time. So it was It was It was a really I like on and credit that they did that for me. Um, I was in about 2012 2013. Um, so I spent another three or four years working for the guys that were doing oil extraction on during that time General Electric and launched a programme to dio machine learning and artificial intelligence on a global scale across a ll, the machines that they would So Okay, so I was based in San Ramon, California. Andi, they say approaching one day. They said they'd like me to be part of that journey that they were going on there, which again was just a fantastic compliment. You join that it was a crazy time. There was spending, like, I think that was saying a $1,000,000,000 a year when I launched this thing that they were developing. So again, it was just a fantastic crash course in everything about howto launch big scale data, lead product speed. You know, lots and lots of learnings in there. All right, um,

spk_0:   10:09
And again, in the resource is space. Yes, it

spk_1:   10:12
was. It was everything from aviation through teo market power turbines, oil plants. Name yes. Anything that's got, like, heavy machinery. They're trying to develop a software platform that spoke Teo and use the data from the machines as opposed Tio. Okay, the more traditional platforms that you might know about zero a ws and you're on those stacks of based on consumer data and right people work. The platform that G we're trying to build was based around machines would talk to each other, so it's built from the ground up. I ot an industrial scout. Yeah, right talk. It was a fantastic challenge your heart off on DH. There were really tackling head on. Cem Cem Very difficult concepts, things, things that even even today, you know, four years on was still trying to wrap our heads around, figure out how to make this stuff all kind of gel together. So it was great to be at the beginning of that stuff.

spk_0:   11:08
Cool. So So from from there is that when you made the jump into products consoling, it wasn't saying I I had another stint. So I,

spk_1:   11:18
um I've spent a lifetime and b to B and I really enjoyed product management. And what I wanted to do round myself out was to spend a bit of time working on consumer facing products. Ahs. Well, that's everything I'd learned through G. So I had an opportunity to join Go compare. So for those of you who aren't ah UK based there a price comparison website one of the big four in the UK on DH they What was exciting for me about joining those guys is that they were looking at how they could go beyond you going to a website. I'm not sure if you have this kind of thing in Australia,

spk_0:   11:54
we don't. So I worked for the Australian equivalent. I said, Oh, yeah, Great.

spk_1:   11:58
Okay, so you know the Chinese right, which is, you know, buying insurance or switching energy. It's super boring. You never really wanted to it. Um, And you're really, really ever visiting that website once a year and then you're off again, and often you don't even remember that you've got an account with these guys. You know, you only do it when you're in that moment of need. So the challenge that these guys have is how on earth did they convince you to use on be sticky with a service over multiple periods, So they were expand, and to their credit, they were experimenting with different models. So the comparison space and insurance space is is something that hasn't really changed for many, many years. People are still very, very frustrated with the whole process there. So they were looking at seriously how they could have improved that, and they brought me in to to effectively launch one of their first versions of that which was on auto switching service. So I kind of went beyond, you know, once or twice and you having to take action, um, on giving you instead something that you gave permission to act on your behalf regular intervals to be able to do that. Um, so that was a fantastic time again. A really great crash course in everything about to see and consumer products and howto create stickiness with products

spk_0:   13:18
for Remember that that although switching product that that disrupted market in itself because you're no longer needed Teo do any application for new power companies. And four month by month, almost or quarter by quarter, you're on the cheapest supplier. So that was disruptive product. Exactly. Remember, Market?

spk_1:   13:36
Yeah, it was. It was It was, Yeah, yeah, So I think there's a couple of bucks to do this now, but it was all kind of based on the premise off. There's nothing, really that's

spk_0:   13:44
changing the electricity, right as long as he's on is like their version, like premium energy. Right says just how much you're spending. Andi can't charge your iPhone any quicker by paying more, And the mad thing is, you

spk_1:   13:56
know, half the people listening to this could save £300 a year. Right now, I mean, right now with about 15 seconds effort. Most people don't get it right, Because I know what goes through your mind as it goes through my mind as well as fast like, Is it really? You know, that stuff? Say so. The point was to that. Okay, you may switch energy, but most people do it once, and then they never do it. Yeah, when you move in, right, that's it. So why not take on a service where that kind of deal with the hassle for you, you've given it permission? You've given it all your details on DH, then you know, it could be the thing that's kind of dealing with that hassle on your behalf year after year to make sure you're not being ripped off on a bill.

spk_0:   14:39
Can I ask, how did you money on find that transition going from big industrial B to B. To be to say it was crazy. It was there. A mental shift was a big fish in a big shift.

spk_1:   14:52
It took me a while to adjust. Right was going from a from a team of 300,000 to 300. That's it was phenomenal. And I think the major thing that I observed was in a large organisation. You spend a lot of time presenting concepts that Khun permeate multiple layers in the business. So you have to get really, really good condensing down your prospect of what you're trying to explain into a simple message that can go across multiple layers of management. We're a small organisation. You can you can have a much higher bandwidth conversation directly with the founder of the CEO. Whoever happens to be so and that that has always been my my philosophy on why smaller organisations get to move quicker because they could have more quality conversations without having to get alignment across multiple layers of the business. So it was actually a great I saw it as a great opportunity toe accelerate everything that I'd learned I could peel away a couple of the pieces I was forced to do in a larger organisation just to make sure that things happen and shortcut to action.

spk_0:   15:55
Yeah, fantastic. Fantastic. So from go compare So from Go compare.

spk_1:   16:00
Yes. So as off two months ago Yeah, s o I finally scratch that itch, which was that I was wanting to work for myself on DH. I've had a bit of success in the past running two small side projects. That kind of went okay, but I always wanted to do the for that to be my my main thing that I did data Jolene. Yeah, Exactly. Oprah. I struggled mentally for a long time about what product I was gonna launch in the market. I'm saying to myself, You know, I'm not gonna switch out of permanent employment. So I find the product, the thing I believe in enough to quit. And the epiphany that I had was the product, and actually, everything I could sell was everything that I was learning about. Product management. It was One of the reasons I got into product management in the first place is because you get that great exposure to so many working functions of a business on DH again. My, my, my my theory was during that time I'd also get exposure to lots different products, and that would spark something in me that kind of said okay, that's definitely the thing I wanted, Teo. But actually what I've what I've come to realise is all these skills are never quite are are saleable services in their own right. And I've definitely, you know, through my through, through through everything I've seen, actually, product manages, very interestingly, are well positioned out of out of all the possible disciplines that could get into Conservancy. What? Managers themselves. Actually, I have quite a natural fit for consultancies. It's really interesting.

spk_0:   17:32
Fantastic. So what was do you think your big East Valya to to to making a switch? It was two months ago. So this each must have been there for six months. Yeah, probably my whole career. So what? What? What happened the day that you decided? What was it that just went? Yeah. I mean I mean, what was that moment?

spk_1:   17:55
I think it wass. You know, when you kind of look through the next year ahead and you're going What? What is it that you want to achieve on DH? My journey would go compare. Although fantastic was coming to an end on DH, I had basically a choice as to whether I went out and sought permanent employment, joined somebody else's mission, somebody else's campaign and I was sitting back in that moment and going, you know, looking through the job sites and Obviously it's super quiet in December. Anyway, when you're looking at this stuff, sitting back and realising, Actually, the most appealing thing would be something that I could forge for myself. So, um, I just kind of went, That's great. Let's do it on. I think you know very specifically the next step that I took from there. Wass, too, pick the brains off as many consultants as I could. So I recognise this. That's just completely new angle for May have been a permanent employee forever. I've been thinking about launching products, and I've gotten pretty good at that kind of testing ideas and stuff. But I'd never tested the idea of being a consultant myself. So typical product manager wanting data as quickly

spk_0:   19:05
as possible, and that is an idea. Put it for a discovery. That's it. Brilliant.

spk_1:   19:08
Yeah, on DH. So I very luckily through my network and again, I'm super gracious for everybody who gave me time was able to secure phone interviews and conversations with about seven or eight well known consultants in the UK, Right, um, on DH, They just gave me an absolute download off A with their lessons, how they got started you know things that they would advise on

spk_0:   19:33
eso these independent consultants like yourself or be controlling phones like the B, C, G s and Deloitte and host of things.

spk_1:   19:42
Yeah, it was a mix. So it was everybody from independent consultants through Teo much larger can't Deloitte's Andi. I also spoke to folks that worked for, like, sesame sized agencies as well. So you know, on a mixed in that as well So product management specialist organisations, but also folks that worked inside of a larger group. So product management was an element of what the agency did. And again, what I was doing a test. There was what type off consultant did I want to be on DH? I think I think anybody who's thinking about going into consultancy, what will come up against the same thing and this this it's definitely benefits of going and working for a larger agency is basically that the stream of work. It's gonna be much more assured you can walk in a junior level, potentially on DH, be levelled up whilst you're there for me. The big attraction, though, was Teo work directly with organisations on my own terms and with that what I was also trying to do is carve out a space to work with SMS and scale ups that perhaps weren't interesting to these larger agencies. And again, it's just It was a kind of mind, Ava hot thing like I can I could. The conversation I had in my head was ongoing work from these larger agencies. They can give me a salary, they'll bring the work in. You know, I can kind of sit there on the line and deal with things as they come in, But to me, that wasn't exciting. My heart was actually in on the mission I wanted to go on was I want to go in, meet on help a bunch of fledgling businesses really get there to their potential.

spk_0:   21:22
Right. Okay, so that's you've been really precise, is what I'm hearing in nine year addressable market. Yeah, And if you focus geographically as a consultant around the Bristol Cardiff area in the southwest of England, Hero, um, have you saw off just anyone in U. K. I have a flat asses that factored in because, you know, with the software products Yeah, you can do it from anyway. You have a consultant is obviously a lot of face to face on. Has that factored into?

spk_1:   21:51
I think I mean, the first thing to say is I spent the last two years commuting into Wales from Bristol in the Southwest was about 100 miles round trips. Um, as a money two minutes. And I'm taking advantage of the fact that I don't

spk_0:   22:04
have to have a commute right now, or at least not too

spk_1:   22:07
often. So I'm focusing on businesses in Bristol. The mark. Two reasons on my doorstep. My network is here as well. But my intention absolutely, is to create something that's transferrable regardless of the geography. And certainly there are lots of exciting hubs in the UK alone of, of spaces where very interesting Cos. Is starting to grow up. So take Bristol, for example, which is just across the pond here, Um ah, there's something like 10,000 technology companies there so that on DH there, attracting investment at a level which is only really outnumbered by London. Okay, so there's this London. It's very, very well established. I think people know London well, a centre of innovation, but there's a great movement happening right now. where that innovation and those best practises are starting to come out to some of the larger secondary cities in the UK

spk_0:   23:10
So, like Bristol, Cambridge? Yes. Manchester is kind of big place. Bristol, quickly from wrong from memory is the home of aerospace in Brenda Boeing Someone

spk_1:   23:24
Ah, I'm gonna mind black now.

spk_0:   23:29
Queen. That's right. There s

spk_1:   23:31
Oh, yes. So the wings of the A 3 80 were made. Okay, Crystal. So they did all that heavy engineering there. And they have a happy aviation space and heavy industry spaces. Well, so that's where I worked with General Electric as well. I do a lot of stuff with, um, carbon composites. They've got the national carbon composite centre in Bristol as well. Um, ons they've got. So they've got the large centres. But they've also got a great collection of incubators, much like Cardiff dust as well. Where you find thes s Emmys on DH scale of organisations that are looking for that support to kind of get to the next level. Great, Great. If I kind of encompass the whole south, west of England and Wales area, there's a great nexus of very exciting things that are happening here at the moment, and there's a great opportunity to help a bunch of companies. Some in kind of work that I'm doing.

spk_0:   24:22
Would I be correct in bringing up is embarking down Bruno, your crystals, Wes, there was an innovator. Hey, Wass. Yes? Yeah, I was actually trying to find some great quotes of his continent has done the quiz on Bristol Cardiff at the start. And you know now, So can you tell me talk to me a little bit mad about. And how do you differentiate yourself as a consultant way when you're getting face to face or I'll meet meeting

spk_1:   24:49
people? Yeah. You know, I think about that challenge, Mohr. In terms of like any product, you've got to make sure that you've understood the problem correctly about what these businesses need to achieve. You can imagine, particularly in the world of consultations there being barraged day in, day out by the delight message. Um, you know, you know, even they're also kind of getting management consultants, So consultant can mean so many different things. Yeah. So what? I spent a lot of time refining with talking through consultants and also talking to business owners was one of the problems that these kind of organisations are having. Andi, therefore, where wood product management add a lot of value really, really quickly. So it's It's perhaps not surprising, but it's all kind of in the space off. They've achieved first winds potentially with what they're doing, so they may have a couple of customers that say 10 20 customers in the B two B space, maybe a couple 100 of 1000 B to C space. They really unclear about how to get that, too. 1000 in the B two B space, or 100,000 to a 1,000,000 write to see space on DH. Not only are they unclear about what proposition should be that they're unclear, even had to kind of start to address that problem. How do they even test without risking everything? Because an SM E is so close to the wire in terms of cash for a long time. How do they test that quickly and find out exactly what they should be bringing to market to achieve that kind of scale? So because of that, I've kind of taken all those kind of best practises that we use product managers get to know really, really quickly around validation around, maybe testing on user interviews and repackaging that with language that a business owner would understand in terms of the problem that solves war. So, for example, let's say that there is a challenge of an organisation which, um, has a beater that they've created on going to use to be, to be example, just cause that's more of my background, right? So So they've created the products on DH. They've won two major projects on those major projects now are consuming 80% off their development resource right on DH. These projects are now asking for custom features. So what's happening is that they're developing effectively a project on a spoke solution for that one customer. But they know that if they want to get five customers, 10 customers, they've gotta figure out how on earth they pick between all this possible things that they're developing effectively for free on these projects and turn those into things that can be packaged up. They can be configured really, really quickly, you know, scaled to multiple customers. So one of the packages and one of things I help with is to do a discovery process inside of the things that they've already created. Okay, so they what? The way that that looks is that we would kind of go through why the customer needed that on whether that is something that we contest with other customers to see. Whether that scales beyond again. It's that's a great exercise for that company to go through because they they feel like they've got a choice. They've either got to follow the money and develop something for that business, or they've gotta step aside and not make money. But build something modular that can scale. So what I help them with is to basically have their cake and eat it and recognise how they can use projects. And the winds and weather found opportunities. Teo naturally grow scalable products.

spk_0:   28:37
I'm here. I'm thinking of feature factory like you're You're like trying to prevent them from coming a feature factory, basically that in what they're doing and and re assessing the value off what they've already created because I mean, we know his product people with the fact that you've got a feature, any supporting and he's ongoing testing exactly, even beyond the life bring its market. That's it. Okay. Can I ask, Have you found that that when you've critiques what they've already got do you discover things that aren't being used? And how do you position that, Teo? Maybe take things out off the product or the service offering and has that received?

spk_1:   29:15
You know, what I often find is that those kind of features are already resented, right? Okay. They feel like a necessary evil. They know they don't know. It just is, even if it's just instinct. Yeah, I feel like it's away from the corps so often. All they really need is permission to take that out and to focus on the right thing. So it's kind of Ah, negative and positive Accountant Stick piece. Right, So So the that. The kind of benefit is to say, um, this is consuming a lot of your capacity for not much value. So again, it's in terms of the business owner is used to attributing rights. They're looking at maximum value for every penny that's spent. This is costing you a lot. Doesn't look like it has a lot of future in it, move away, but that that in itself is not enough. You have to fill it with something else, which is the Catch 22 on this stuff, right? So it's saying, if we weren't to do that thing and we were to create that capacity in the organisation, what is the most important feature to be developing right now? And if we don't know that, how can we go and understand the discover that through successful engagements on DH, talking to all the prospective customers that we'd like to acquire?

spk_0:   30:25
Okay, can I ask in the product space we've got metrics to measure. Success for what? What we're doing as a consultant. How you what metrics are you picking on? An obvious one is you're able to afford to weigh on. You made this change. But how you How do you measure the effectiveness of consultancy?

spk_1:   30:45
Yeah, it's an interesting again. I I tackled. I need it on this one a lot. Um, I recognise that because it was just me to start with. My my major value was my major limiting factor was my time might just get maximum value from any time any contact that I had with prospective customers, I also was realistic with myself up front that not everybody is gonna buy my services. So I built myself a Pasic conversion funnel, and I said, Okay, I want Teo for me to fill my capacity to what I can achieve. I need to have I think I worked out about five or six engaged customers a month, whether that's a retainer or one ofthe workshop and so went back from that and said OK of off those five or six. Let's assume that maybe 10% of the people I talk to you is actually going to be interested in doing that stuff on. Then I added another 50% contingency until black because people like, you know, don't have time. They don't really most whatever. So that gave me a number of approximately 100 people that I needed to talk to really really quickly and then and then try and trickle people down the funnel. That's a long way of saying I've had a lot

spk_0:   32:07
of coffee in the last two months and

spk_1:   32:09
made a lot of people

spk_0:   32:11
imagines. Yeah, that's quite brave thing to Dio, you know? I mean, you've gone from being a software engineer in tow, working in R and D in a global, very safe big company into shifting completely into consumer space communions Cardiff every day and they don't understand. You gotta pick up the phone. 100 people? Yes. Did that come natural? Teo, I

spk_1:   32:37
you know, I did struggle with it, actually, yeah. I mean, the classic impostor syndrome started to kick in, and I was really struggling with whether I was going to be able to add Valley to these guys. But again, talking with other consultants really helped to relax me about that stuff. And they make me write. They help me, understands that, Um, you know, some of the concepts we talk about in product management are very vory sophisticated on their level, where if you're not in the world of product management, they almost they don't. They don't make sense to people who look at product management from the outside. So the thing Teo that consult other consults, help me understand, is the simplest levels of product management the simplest applications of product management figuring out what there's our add value to so many businesses so quickly because they're just not in that world. And they don't even see the challenge is that obvious to a product manager who's been in that space for a long time. So just showing them with the light on this stuff and being given permission to do so. You add value in an hour. Great, great. And so because of that, I started to relax and feel comfortable that, you know, even even getting these guys to a phone call or a coffee, I could have a great conversation about the challenges that they were experiencing and just pick two or three typical toolboxes off the top of my head that would add value would instantly make sense. Teo, that owner longest, was being sincere and honest about the problem, and I'd understood it correctly. So that relaxed me because it meant I didn't feel like I was asking for permission to work for these guys as effectively going out there to see if I could help drink. And, um, you know, being in that mindset, not not kind of feeling needy about needing thiss thing to say, but just basically having a bit of fun and going and listening to a business and the challenges that they were having and potentially being able to suggest some pointers that would help them made these phone calls, actually, an enjoyable experience from the outset.

spk_0:   34:38
Cooper. But, I mean, it brings back to one of, you know, call product management principles. You sat in here and you listening to their problem and, you know, trying to sell a solution. You just trying to understand that problem and the value or comes from that in time. That's it. Yeah, Fantastic cake can ask. There's product managers were always balance in fighting with assumptions on prioritising assumptions. What's what's the biggest assumption you had that was caught you out, which have been You're biggest learning so far that you assume something. But turns out, I

spk_1:   35:09
think it was time. Time. Yeah. So, um, my assumption was that or rather, I had an ambition that things, although many two months in I was hoping for for things to be signed and on the line by the time I come into February because again I'd set myself like a quarterly objective with okay, us again stepped on DH. One of these was a certain amount of revenue locked in with agreements. Um, and the reality is that it just takes time. Although It's important to me on anybody who's a consultant on the outside of a business, and you're sending an email on Do you know you may not get a response for three or four days? The thing that I had tio kind of challenge myself on was remembering the context of who I was talking to. That I was one thing, and not even a certain thing on a list of 100 won their to do list. So the assumption that people would engage quickly and make quick decisions about this was the big one. But again, I tried to turn it into a positive thing, which was to say, What can I do to help promote this up the priority list or prospective customers, either by being much clearer on the Valley or clearing lockers? So why they couldn't engage with me right now again? That helped a lot with with some of the some of the company's ableto work with Tio. Either we provide them with talk, it's over email or simplify the engagement to a quick phone call upfront rather than for workshop. Those kind of things meant that I had an engagement of sorts and they. And more importantly, that customer was able to take action as quickly as possible around these things.

spk_0:   36:48
Fantastic, Fantastic. And what's next for you? Well, say big. Being a product manager. Obviously the world go around, Go around. Yeah. Yeah.

spk_1:   36:58
So, you know, I think I think the big question for me is how the scales beyond me. So what's going through my mind at the moment? He's, you know, do I start with an affiliate model where I find other like minded product managers who are looking to take that leap out of permanent employment on DH kind of go their own path? Do I potentially take on employees as well? On my big frontier, for sure, is about how I take everything that's in my head in terms of all these lessons I've learned and turn it into something that's transferrable, something that doesn't require me to be in the room. Teo, convey that value. Teo a customer,

spk_0:   37:33
right, fantastic, fantastic, massively respect anyone who puts himself in a vulnerable position, and you certainly have by taking that leap. So I wish you the very best. Thank you so much. It's been awesome to chat through. I know that there's many product people that we've been in product along while or less than a year that consulting opportunities ever come along where they start to think about it and or they've moved to consulting and they want to move back and yo yo between the toe. But I think it's gonna be really valuable episode for Thanks for sharing everything and your best wishes for the year ahead. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode. Thanks. Tow Matt Stone for joining me and talking for his 1st 2 months off going into consulting as a product manager. If you've enjoyed this episode or any of the episodes on the product Coalition European Tour, please consider supporting the Bush fire affected communities, wildlife and volunteer firefighters of Australia. And you can do that by going to a bushfire doc product coalition dot com until the next episode. Thanks for listening

Cardiff Quiz
Jumping to consulting
Transition B/B to B/C
Working for yourself
The biggest barrier to make a switch
How to differentiate yourself as a consultant
Critique and respond to it
How to measure success as a consultant
What are the difficulties to work for yourself as a consultant
What was the biggest assumption that caught you out?
What is the next step?