Product Coalition Product Management Podcast

EU Tour #2 | Remote Work COVID-19 Special Edition with distributed systems of work specialist Tim Buzza

March 17, 2020 Season 4 Episode 2
Product Coalition Product Management Podcast
EU Tour #2 | Remote Work COVID-19 Special Edition with distributed systems of work specialist Tim Buzza
Identifying opportunities to change the way we work
What are the insights of the distributed team at home
The risks and biases about working from home
What conversations must be between board members around the situation that happening now?
What should the CEO do regarding remote work and the current situation?
What are the signs people leaders should looking out for the employee's emotional state
Personal relationships between peers and the role of the team leader
The approach for people who want to "escape home by coming to the office"?
How can employers, leaders and businesses can change the ways they think about remote working?
What are some of the data metrics for the employers and the costumer that demonstrate benefits of working from home?
Going pro-working remotely
Remote work VS flexible work
Product Coalition Product Management Podcast
EU Tour #2 | Remote Work COVID-19 Special Edition with distributed systems of work specialist Tim Buzza
Mar 17, 2020 Season 4 Episode 2

Listen in to the live stream with decentralised and distributed systems of work specialist, Tim Buzza and myself, Jay Stansell.

We discuss team welfare, board positioning, social consciousness, persona types and much much more, in the most extended and most in-depth podcast episode I have ever recorded. 

There are a LOT of mistakes you can make when introducing a work from home policy. Tim and I know as we worked together to deeply understand this concept over 12 months, back in 2016.

If you, your team, or your business has rapidly decided to introduce a mass work-from-home policy in response to the COVID-19 issue, you need to listen in to this episode to discover what to do and not do, for this to be successful.

If you find this episode valuable, please do share it, as it is critical we do not introduce mass-scale work from home to solve one problem, and in the process, create many new problems.

If you’ve just discovered the Product Coalition, we’re a global product community with over 500k readers, 6,000 slack members and thousands of podcast listeners. Head to to find out more.

Support the show (

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Listen in to the live stream with decentralised and distributed systems of work specialist, Tim Buzza and myself, Jay Stansell.

We discuss team welfare, board positioning, social consciousness, persona types and much much more, in the most extended and most in-depth podcast episode I have ever recorded. 

There are a LOT of mistakes you can make when introducing a work from home policy. Tim and I know as we worked together to deeply understand this concept over 12 months, back in 2016.

If you, your team, or your business has rapidly decided to introduce a mass work-from-home policy in response to the COVID-19 issue, you need to listen in to this episode to discover what to do and not do, for this to be successful.

If you find this episode valuable, please do share it, as it is critical we do not introduce mass-scale work from home to solve one problem, and in the process, create many new problems.

If you’ve just discovered the Product Coalition, we’re a global product community with over 500k readers, 6,000 slack members and thousands of podcast listeners. Head to to find out more.

Support the show (

Jay:   0:16
Hello, everyone. And thank you for tuning into another episode ofthe the product Coalition podcast. This is a just in time podcast is best way I can describe this our friend together, the thiss one for four years and audience because we're in a special situation right now. World leaders attendance to work from home on DH whilst we're fortunate to be in an industry that I live and I was most of us to work from home when everyone that's that's not always the case and it can be you. For many of us, it could be new for leaders, management, old members, etcetera. So I'm very pleased to share this session with Tim Buzzer. Welcome to him.

Tim:   0:58
Thank you. Great to be here.

Jay:   1:01
I'm really, really looking forward to talking through. And the reason why I'm so happy for those listening to talk to Tim is this is teams bread and butter. This is what Jim has been living in talking about. It's his passion for well over 10 years. I would say some really pleased Teo to have you on the show and talk to you about me still picked him.

Tim:   1:24
It's incredible, you know, it has been 10 years working with businesses sitting up work from home programmes. But the's times are unprecedented and I was just saying before that it's like somebody's pushed fast forward into the future of work on its just landing on their doorsteps on DH. Some of us prepared for us and prepared for it, and others aren't to be, which is to be expected.

Jay:   1:49
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I've not heard the word work from home front around so many times and mainstream media as having the last 34 days. Now for those listening on the podcast, I just want to give a bit of apology in front two over the studio quite rapidly here. So apologies from us. A sound on audio perspective. We're also live streaming this on YouTube because it's such a hot topic right right now. So thank you for those that joining us on a live stream on YouTube. So, Tim, before we get stuck into the topic, really came for the audience to hear a little bit about your career background on DH, your personal journey into distributed systems of work and how you've got to wait where you are today on before you share that with us? I would like to share with the audience. Tim and I did work together, probably about 34 years ago now, wasn't it Him?

Tim:   2:44
Yeah, that would be that right

Jay:   2:46
now at our G, which is a major insurance group in Australia. And we actually are very fortunate to work with Tim on ah, on initiative or product that was actually complement working from home. And some of the strategic initiative is Tim was leading at and continues to later I i j s o. There is a little bit of friendship in history between us. I'm really pleased and only share this with an industry specialist, but a good friend as well. So placed him Please jump in and introduce yourself and give the audience your your background.

Tim:   3:20
Excuse me. So it's always difficult as to where to start the life storey that leads you to where you are today. But my first placement most relevant is I started my working career as a welfare worker than social worker running mules programmes for the Salvation Army, then moved into drug and alcohol crisis counselling emergency housing and did that for about six years. I was always motivated by the need to serve the community in the need to make a difference that need to be offset, service or helpful to others. Ah, but after about six years of doing that, I can't do it. Could've came to a natural end and I felt like I needed Teo Look Teo other ways to fulfil that sort of sense of purpose. And I went to study natural medicine while studying natural medicine. I took a job in a call centre to pay the bills and before I kind of knew what was happening. I was in a team leader role in their course in there, and I fell in love with that leadership role. I fell in love with the responsibility, with the opportunity that leadership presented to still have to fulfil that purpose to make a difference in people's lives. The role of the leader is quite extraordinary, but no use you as a social worker, especially crisis counselling. I was there for people in that moment of intense need, but it was very brief. You kind of there to intervene to support, to help him through that moment. But as a leader, you are with people in their life, joining sometimes with with people and support them over many years on. So it's more of a whole person engaged. And so I did that for a long time, that force for feeling that that sense of purpose I grew in that role. Look, Teo, make a difference by expanding that leadership scope so gruesomely manage one team, too. Several teams Teo a centre to several centres with many hundreds of employees reporting three to me. And that was very rewarding, but still But to a point was where I was started to reflect and go well, there must be This is great that I'm having the impact on all these people's lives is their leader. Is there is. There is a critical kind of figure in their life that was wonderful. But how could I? The question I was asking myself was, How could I make that includes that impacted on Greta? And where that led me to was thinking about the underlying systems, the design of work and how that could be if I could shift that even shift that dial just a little bit. Not only would that have an impact on all of the people that were reporting to me. But if I shared those improvements and it could have an impact across the whole industry and more broadly, hype flee across the community. So my passion then started to move into that space of how'd ally Impact had alike understand those underlying systems of work understand how they're affecting people's well being and sick to redesign them? You know why that ah is uplifting and to their to their well being. I understand the mental idea that everybody should leave a day's work not just better off financially, better off physically, emotionally, socially and perhaps even spiritually as a result of engaging in that activity. It's not good enough to go to work and just haven't we haven't built around, do not do no harm principle and believe work better off financially. But actually still not better off any other way. It should deliver more to us. It's such a big part of our lives. So with that mines, my purpose, then I've been introduced to distributed systems and system Siri and in particular block chain as a zoo, a modern expression of distributed systems, and that led to me thinking around. Well, OK, I'm interested in the underlying systems of work. How could these new ideas of distributive systems either like one, too? The design of work? And could that and be a means to actually Craig consistently change that actually made work something that didn't deliver on that goal of uplifting, total well being

Jay:   8:01
Brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And then from finding your purpose, Teo identifying you know, opportunities, patterns, methods to change the way we work. I know you've been gone onto actually infertile and have that direct impact.

Tim:   8:18
Yeah, and that's what that's been extraordinary. I mean, it started with introducing work from home is kind of a significant change into that design of work and implementing that across organisations. But then looking more broadly about, well, that's impacting where we work. But there's also other dimensions of work which we can redesign, which is around when we work and also around what we do. And fundamentally. Ultimately it comes down to if we can come up with workplace systems that empower people with choice around what when, where they where they work, Then we will giving people the opportunity to design their own experience of work. And if we apparent people to do that, then there's a better likelihood that that work experience will deliver benefit not just to them. And there will be weeping but also to the organisation and committed stakeholders that that benefit from that activity.

Jay:   9:18
The team could. Could you get intercept some data on on the topic? So just top line on get this off executive summary on what? What are some of the insights that we know about the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to distributing a tame on, particularly when they're that distribution is at home

Tim:   9:48
when implemented successfully, these distributed systems of work can have enormous benefit to the organisation and the individuals is no question of that on and companies that I've worked with the goal saying significant improvements in they're people metrics. So most businesses are looking especially style businesses. They're looking at things like, you know, the patrician right absentees, productivity levels insightful and all of those metrics improved where it's implemented. Poli We see I've seen businesses and not this not wanted. I've actually worked with fortunately, but there's certainly been storeys of business that have reversed these distributed systems, reversed from reversed were from home and gone back to office by systems, perhaps due to a bias perhaps due to not having thought truthfully. Ah, the implications off working this way on DH if not done well, it can have negative impacts so that this message upside but is also potentially downside risks. Well, like any change and so it takes a look. It does take some thinking, and that's where I suppose we find herself right now is a lot of organisations that ah being forced into a situation with it. But I'll leap into the future of intimating distributed systems of work and yet perhaps not have had the opportunity most likely not have had the opportunity to fully think them through. Ah, not been having numbers of conversations in the last couple of weeks with various organisations who have reached out just looking for tips because, you know, they they're something that might have been on The strategic plan might have been something that they were thinking about doing in the future. But suddenly this week they haven't implemented Um that's Kyle into the business.

Jay:   11:38
Yeah, I suppose, and not taking the first step is the right step or in the right way, and can be negative for everyone involved. And I believe that the consequences can be quite severe if if you don't understand how to respect the business from an employee's perspective, but also to respect the employees from a business perspective and then ultimately, how you maintain a manager a great customer experience in amongst this disruption so the customers aren't paying for over.

Tim:   12:09
Yeah, it's interesting because I think what happens is this. There's usually three or four K risks that business executives have to think about and are top of mind for them when looking at work from home in particular, or just distributed decentralised systems. The first is they're worried about the impact of underperformance. So there's a bit of a bison that there's a bias is that if people aren't adequately supervised and they're not going to perform the role, so there's a trust gap and on DH, so that in itself is interesting. It's the way that concern comes from, and and I usually find that when employees have given trust, then they will perform, and it's not about the the amount of supervision that drives performance that it's actually more about the amount of trust that we're giving first. The first concern of exactly one cent I have is it's a concern around underperformance. The next concern is that people that exactly to have his around essentially impacts to people's health. I don't think it's a genuine concern. It tends to be mainly focused on physical health. So for read articles, and it's all one and paper today and was a big section on how to set up your desk properly for our richness and particularly your physical health, that's what's that's important. It's something interesting Doubter there, which is that the number of lost time insure that berate lost time injury injury frequency rate for people working from home is lower. Their nose with companies I work with has been lower than it was when they were saying people in the same workforce was predominantly working from working from the office. And yet when we go out and do a risk assessment off that working environment, that person time, it's actually riskier. So there's more potential hazards in that environment than it was in the office. Yet the lost time injury frequency right is lower. So that suggests to me that people tend to take more responsibility for the physical well being when they're working from their home on when they're working from the office, that kind of hand over that responsibility to the employer. So once I stepped through that door, it's up to them to put the, you know, slip hazard Yellow Triangle on the floor because there's been some water spilt. I'm not gonna, you know, unless it And if I do step in that water and it's, you know it's the person's, it's employers fault. Where's anytime you take responsibility? So I think that's not such a big risk. But it's always a top of mind risk where the real risk is with health. It's to do with mental and emotional well being and the issues around loneliness. And we can go into that in a bit more detail like that. That's a really important topic. Um, the next concern is around data data security, um, and, um, and customer on bicycle security around customer information. So the guy existing made against the employers have usually adequate, although always actually my experience that have always been adequate. So when most companies that have sensitive customer information, we'll do police cheques that do reference cheques that the point time of hiring have been made against in place there we have other militants in place around understanding, you know, sort of signals of people's behaviour. You might be in a situation where they feel a propensity to commit fraud and so forth. So they just because thie opportunity might be higher doesn't mean the desires any higher. Basically, on DSO we've never seen an increase of incidents around breeches of data security, breaches of customer privacy. As a result, ofthe people working remind me either, so they have my concerns that executives have so they somewhat a bit of a, um a lot of them are basting. Vice is built on the what then current executives currently no. And so I find that you tend to have to kind of address them and talk to them with, um, sort of compassion and understanding I get. This is concern, but in reality, really does anyone under long risk. On the other line, risk is UN employee feeling a sense of disconnection, so the employee feels disconnected on when I define a six minute is disconnected, too. The organisational values and purpose disconnected to your teammates and colleagues and disconnected from your manager and call support from the organisation. If you've got disconnection across most of all three of those levels, then the chances of the employee's feeling disconnected. Feeling disengaged, therefore is likely to underperform is more likely to commit acts of fraud. It'll, you know, breaches of data processing and security more likely to suffer injury, most likely emotional, mental because they feeling a sense of isolation, which is consoled. And so, really, when you think about that, all those risks, there's really only one thing that needs to be managed for, and that is in the design of work, from home above anything else. And that is managing or designing that employee experienced. So they always feel it's interconnection across the street, dimensions of organisation, of values and purpose, their teammates and their manager. If you get that right, everything else seems to just fall into place,

Jay:   17:40
right? Right. It's really interesting how it falls down toe that employees experience and that here stand with the other principals value on, but what

Tim:   17:48
I think is happening the risk is right now is organisations rushed to work from home because I have to is that they're putting all their effort and energy into other What other mitt against off those risks that I went through and not putting your energy into the core mid again, which is the most important one, the one that actually underlying toe all those risks, which is this risk of our selection of disconnection.

Jay:   18:17
So tomorrow I'm gonna take it up a level and, firstly bring upto a board level. So for what? A possibly having emergent board meetings are bringing board meetings forward due to the situation we're facing globally, What should the conversation? What should the questions be? Firstly, in the boardroom between board members, particularly with regards to sleet, the financial impact, the employee culture but also the employee welfare, what types of questions should they be asking each other?

Tim:   18:53
Um, it's the answer's kind of signal. You know, most boards will be interested in doubly interested in understanding one of the risks to the business at the moment, and I think that's the right lens for that level. The business to be thinking about the situation that the business is currently facing, and then start Tio, you once understood. Once we understand those risks, you kind of two bit like design principles you have forced out to understand the problem. And once you have a deep understanding the problem than you think, they are right to start exploring potential solutions. So I don't really have a different answer to what I went through before. I think realistically, it is about taking a risk. Lins on this deflate graboid perspective, and it's a biting most boards and much executives to actually to understand a problem through risk lanes. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Um, particularly because it can lead it can and should lead to some very, very helpful design principles to guide there. The organisational change.

Jay:   20:04
Okay, thank you on Ben. Bring it. Bring it down to the CEO of the executive Suites are further CEO ever. It's leading 5 500 or 5000. What should today look like as a remote working CEO now with a remote working workforce that that's just been forced tto happen in the last four years? Our what should the CEO be doing and be mindful ofthe? I'm from today and for the rest of the week until the situation changes.

Tim:   20:37
I am had a mantra in the first working time programme that that I set up which wass into the TV with all the latest which was Communicate, communicate, communicate. And once you feel feel like you've communicated enough, communicated it mole. And that is really the king. For not it's a cage during any significant organisational can't change of disruption, which is, of course, relevant to the current context. But for any re might working workforce, the need to communicate to the point that you feel like you're over communicating is absolutely essential. Um, and because that hi, it's just the way it was messy risk. There is massive, um ah, impact. If people don't get the message that don't feel like there's a Connexion back to that executive and so they really need to be focused on building that executive building, that Connexion that ultimately the saying I was responsible for the organisational values and purpose and really any communication, any messaging that's coming from that that that level needs to be always, um, representing that for that remote workforce because that's what they that's what will guide their actions. That's what will that remote workforce is there any time anywhere? Course reminds that different, too, at the office. But it is any level of uncertainty that the employee's feeling and its potential for uncertainty in the office and behind, but perhaps a little more from Heim in having that values and purpose really clearly communicated and re communicated and iterated, that becomes a kind of guiding light. If I'm uncertain around what I should do, well, I could default back to that Teo to make a decision to move forward. Andi, I think so. I think that's really the key for that level right now

Jay:   22:45
for the people leaders within an organisation. I'm particularly with regards to the employee welfare. You know, coming work is a very social activity. You know, we've all got a friend at work even if we may know, enjoy coming to work or we love coming to work, and we're going to be feeling very distance from my friends and from the works. Brute Um, for people leaders that may wantto pick up on signs where an employee it may be struggling with remote work. In this situation, when it's been introduced so rapidly What some of the time people leading being in out for where employees, engagement or emotion just may not be in cheque with with what they're expecting, what should they be looking for? So,

Tim:   23:36
first of all, let's start with the problems that the problem is that I d percent off some. Plucking the number depends on the report. You wrote that I did the same off. How we communicate is through body language. And, um, that is a that fade back that a manager might be so used to relying upon to understand the emotional state of their people suddenly removed. And that's and that's really the problem that the leaders that leaders will be facing when they initially have worked from home thrust upon them. How did I know that if it's a front line, employees just take the Cole Centre example. They've just had a really bad cold, and they really upset and they just picked up their head sitting thrown into the ground. You know, I got tears coming. Other eyes. If you saw that in the office, you'd know how to respond to it. But in the Andi, when the change virtual Of course, the leader can't see that happening and therefore isn't able to initiate that interaction that is needed with that employee at that point in time. So we put a lot of effort and thought into How do we flip that response? So that's the employees that is initiating that interaction with that Leah, um, and because ultimately that's what is needed. So the leader needs to work on establishing a very, very authentic, trusted relationship with their employees so that their employees always still safe to let them know how they're feeling. And to know that that that that that communications guy Jimmy bent with with respect and understanding and so that that is just basic leadership but too often that leaderships that that humanity can be missing from a workplace and once we got virtually bleeders who don't bring that natural humanity to the way in which they interact with their people will be expanded quite quickly. So, um, that's that's That's really probably one of the key things, like point out around that. But really, ultimately comes the end of the later building that trusted safe relationship, so that the employees can initiate contact and when I need this mortuary. Is that the course? The virtual body is virtual body language. Um, somebody who is normally engaged in a chat suddenly has gone very quiet. Perhaps their language, or the way they're engaging with in college and the colleagues on the team cheque has changed tone. Um, it's really important that the leader is participating in no sort of team environments. And, ah, I mean, if they're not going, they're putting themselves at a significant disadvantage.

Jay:   26:33
So some great tips that in there's a few few knows I've just written down that bring bring back memories from when we were working on the initiative together. Springs to mind is when everyone's working from home is particularly for for people leaders. But just piers, you've got an opportunity to be invited in tow someone else's home. It's virtual over a video call. You're now in someone else's home, and I think that's a great opportunity to you get to see the pictures hanging on the wall. You get to see you know what they're safe environment is, and hopefully is a safe environment. That's something else we could talk about separately. But what what home means to their man. I think that's a great relationship. Building opportunity. Teo. Get to seeing the side, the homes off so many of you of your work colleagues that otherwise wouldn't happen.

Tim:   27:27
Absolutely, there's There is a level of personal Connexion that virtual working can can stimulate can encourage that in office. Connexions die just because of that very fact that through video cheque, your you inviting somebody in likely said There is no doubt way say that all the time. It sort of kind of kind of humanises the interaction somewhat. Of course, you know the kids coming into the into the room and then leave again, and it just it just there's something very warm and and lovely about that. That part of virtual working and video chat is a really important tool, But there's something I probably I think is, you know, it's still taking a step back. There is well, you know, we talk about this is kind of virtual work, and I know I tend to talk about it is four day, so we're moving from three D idea of work to a 40 idea of work, and I don't use the term virtual because virtual suggests that somehow this 40 environment is less rial than the three day um, and of course, it's not. The human mind cannot distinguish the difference between an imagined event and a real event, and it certainly can't distinguish the difference between a virtual event and a three day event. So we tend to think of this trench. This shifts that's happening that's been thrust upon us this fast forward into the future of work that's happened is happening right now, which is really exciting as we're making this transition from three days to 40 on. The reason why I say that is because the four day reality that this new work paradigm is emerging in behaves very differently than the three day the rules. The difference, like the rules of physics, get bent, um, and spaces the interesting one. So you know, that's what one of the many interesting dimensions of the sporting reality. So when for us to work together, we need to establish a space that we can cohabitate. And in three d that sprigs of mortar we go to work, we go to the office, we cohabitate that space and we engage, and we could create would collaborate. We collaborate with work together, putting in this four day reality that's that's now emergent space needs to be created not through bricks and mortar, but mortar and 10. So we could build a space in the virtual world and its four day world really quickly in spin. My nap. In no time, let's set up a chat group. Let's set up a virtual whiteboard that set up a meeting room, the virtual meeting room. You can speed up these virtual spaces in no time, much quicker than you could build a building and stick an office in it. And so that that already is. One big difference is that you can speed up the spices really quickly. But what actually gives the spaces meaning is the intent. So why I'm sort of going into this incident is that for this idea of Connexion and leadership behaviour is one of the key things that leaders could do is actually become space makers and then hold that space for their team. A friendly claw right below who wrote reinventing organisation talks about this idea of space making being one of the new kind of emergent leadership qualities that we need to develop. And I think he gets a concept a little bit from from yoga teachers and meditations of a yoga teacher will usually spend a bit of time in a room before pic pull. Their students arrived to set the intent for that space that create that space, Um, and then throughout. And then when people walk into the room, I feel it. I feel like this is very common here. Feels very nice. And that's because the the leader in that environment, which is the teacher, has actually spent some time toe sit intent for that space, and they're holding that spice. And that's exactly that's the kind of skill said that we need now is the leader needs to do that. And once I create that space and I can hold that spice for their team being the team that has a place to coco create and collaborate and the latest has a really crucial bolding. So it's a significant mindset shift. I think that that leaders need to take and they recognise they've got quite a different role now, this new virtual reality off work.

Jay:   32:04
This is really interesting line of thought. I could imagine In many instances, the role of leadership in this situation is outsourced to technology, and by that I mean, as long as people have gotten in neck correction and they've got a Webcam go, whatever the software is to manage tasks and getting things done was the latest done today were really right

Tim:   32:31
that way because you know, you and I know that with with we've probably being tired off, what's that? Groups that were set up for a particular purpose. It's set up as an intent. Let's get together on this WhatsApp group so that we can collaborate on a particular outcome. And it has a lot of energy about it for a while, and it's really really it moves along and then suddenly it just seems to die and the technology is still there. The space is still there, but it's it's it's come to a bit of an economy. It it seems to have confused all doubt. Now, hopefully it's fizzled out because the objective has been met. So we're set that up to work together to achieve a particular outcome there, Chief, there come to be the chief. That space therefore, has reached its its its end of its purpose. But after too often they died because the person who is the space maker and the person who's responsible for holding that space, which is not always the same person but usually it is, has actually taken their attention away from it. They have taken their they've stopped putting their energy into it. And because I have that whole the whole energy off the whole um ah, active. The little activity in that space has suddenly disappeared on DH so that that the person responsible for holding that spice has such an important role to keep it energised. And, you know, and you said, the technology doesn't do that. It's the human that does that.

Jay:   34:01
It's a whole new readership skill that lady's gonna have toe too rapidly on DH, create and cure, right sense of absolutely

Tim:   34:11
yeah, and if they're not actively participating in it, then it just it Zachary that's so easy to walk past somebody virtually and ignore them so easy. Where is physically you just can't do it. So in his four day world, you could just walk past somebody and ignore them without even knowing you've done it. Whereas in three day. You'd never do that. You know, if I walk past you in the office and always say hello to you begging for D, I could just just it could just happen without me even knowing just because I'm too much in my in here, they're not conscious of others, you know? And that's what happens. Yeah. I mean, which Go ahead. Sorry.

Jay:   34:48
Please, please keep going.

Tim:   34:49
Well, for me, the other. The other thing that's really interesting about this ship from three day four day that we're being thrust into a love house this fast forwarded. It was like I am. I think of it like you're probably not a child of the most shocking child of the ageing. So I certainly am. I remember having the Walkman, you know, and the ref overheads it. And when you when you wanted to fast forward to the next track, you had to be pushed playing fast forward at the same time on DH. It would then start, Mrs. It's really horrible squealing noise, as that is. The type fast forwarded on the headset was filled with squealing noise until it detected a pause. And then I would stop and then it would play the next track, and it feels to me like right now in this transition period, but all we're hearing is the squealing noise, like suddenly somebody's pushed fast forward on their on their woman on. We're getting squealing noise and tiles and it's really unpleasant, But we're actually fast forward into this new paradigm of work, and it's and it's really exciting time. Look up for me. This is the most exciting time of my life, like from hickory perspective. Not discount the stress and the fear that a lot of people are feeling right now. But it is incredible with we've been fast forward into this new reality where we're shifting from three day to 40 Um, and that's a hole level of uncertainty that's creating for people people who have jobs that have built in the three day they know their jobs. Look of your flight attendant or a pilot or a waiter in the cafe. Your and you know you got an entirely three day based work, your job and your jobs probably. You know, you're deeply concerned. I feel for those people, but for those people like you and I have already started to transition ourselves into this four day. This is really an exciting time because something saying the rest of the world coming and joining us on and having to learn about the differences and what that looks like. So we talked about space for me, the other big transformation, that sending what's difference between four day in three days, the experience of time. So when we're working virtually when we're working in this four day way, yes. I mean, it's still a minute and an hour is still in Allah, but that's only one way to think about time. Yeah, they're taking him on the clock the other way to think of that time as a flow of information. Yes, I and in this 40 reality, the flow of information, the amount of information that we can download as human beings when we're engaged with work in a virtual way. I mean, I was talking to you before. I've got four screens in economy right here. It's phenomenal. Like weaken the flow of information and weakened talking to on waking, participating in in this four day work world compared to three day, why don't they just They just exponentially different I mean, I went to the library, the other decks involved working at the library. It's a lovely space in Melbourne, but a new renovated library. But I don't ever look in a book, just a nice face. I went there and I was doing some research on my loneliness, relevant to their earlier conversation, really interested in this experience of loneliness and disconnection and what it means to pickle. And in that in a couple of 1000 of seeing their Googling searching, reading various academic papers and so forth, I would have absorbed more information than in probably three days off, walking around the library, pulling books off the shelf, going back to the cards. Yeah, I'm looking for the next broken, sullen. So that's just an example of what? This sort of forging experiences, like suddenly, that flow of information that we can expose ourselves to his next level, which means that our experience of time when working for these so different I was today. I'm having a conversation with a colleague, and I started talking about this conversation, everything. Previously that locket was last week, and then I realised, halfway three, it was on the guest that afternoon that I had that same conversation, but it felt like it and being literally awake since then. Teo. Now, because the flow of information it's so much higher next it impacts our experience of time. Um so space is different. Time is different time and space is decoupled because of secret mystic and ice. A critic. Working communication. It's a completely different paradigm and no one to people feeling a comfortable bed. No one delete is going. Holy crap, Hotta leaving manage people in the spice. People have been trusting to it and they're not prepared for it. Um, it's so different. You're so excited because what we can do there is just next level

Jay:   39:42
Tim in relation to this you which spoke earlier about the at home assessments that you've done. I mean, from a career perspective, I'm getting You've probably been exposed like over 1000 people on their at home working set ups over the last. But I remember, you know, we spent about a year working together in need space, and I do particular remember on the research side in the discovery phase, meeting in people and understanding their lives. And one of the things that I took away. That had a real strong impact that many people come to work to escape home on that Maybe, yeah, they're exposed to make very sick relative at home all day, every day. So I'm coming to work, takes them away from that and exposed Thantos social conversations as opposed to confronting the sickness off that person. Home is obviously are maybe domestic abuse at home and are being exposed to someone that you just don't get along with or even if it's not a home. If you're in our share. Ah, housemate. Right now you and a housemaid don't get along. And now you're forced into the house many times for people that are now working from own working at home or from home. And they're now exposed to things that make them unhappy or unsafe. I just should they approach having a conversation with their organisation? Tio not come to the office, but be safe?

Tim:   41:19
Yeah, it is it. It's a really important question and festival when we have always designed flexible working and work from home. We've designed it from a principle around. If somebody is choosing to work from the office choosing to work 9 to 5 and they're not doing it because of any organisation or pressure. That's just because that's the way they want to work and what works best for them, then that's still flexible working that's still in power working. And so we've always taken that approach on DH. It's it's I think it's a really important thing that we give people choice. Thank you. Sorry. I think my computer just went to sleep. I don't have it made a difference to the conversation.

Jay:   42:11
I'm here now,

Tim:   42:12
so s so the next thing is in OK, that's all fine. You know, it's great fun daily. That's what you'd only do. But right now we're in a situation where where organisations are kind of forcing people to work from home or the government is or somebody's that's very, very difficult and gets back to little bit Tibet to the to the manager, having the right wing like that, the right relationship with their employees. It always seems to come back to that these kind of situations people need to be treated as individuals and respected as individuals, and we need to not get hung up on this idea of having to treat everybody consistently. It's just an absurd concept that comes out of an industrial age kind of mechanical view of an organisation. Way should be able to treat into people individually and consider their search from centres individually, not be worried about what happens if we create a precedent for somebody else and etcetera, etcetera. That's just industrial thinking. I'm beginning to no way more complicated than that. Then we need to the lads the lads spice for that

Jay:   43:17
expected Tim, and we've seen a lot of focus is all on where you work right now. But when were you changes when you work changes you mentioned earlier and ability all of a sudden for you, too? Don't cheque in on a loved one. Children up from school. It's only 15 minutes away from your home, as opposed to an hour away from the house. And how can employers people laters? Business is now changed the way I think about when people are working, and also there's examples when that can't be flexible. But there is a genetically in the technology industry that that can certainly happen. But for businesses, that's new to what does the change of mindset look like for thinking about when we work.

Tim:   44:08
This is really interesting and exciting. Um, change. I think that we're just starting to explore as a community around, impairing people to have more control over their time. Touched briefly on this idea that ins forward anyway of working time and space that to dislocate separate a little bit. So as we start to embrace his more virtual way of working in order to come together to co create and collaborate and work together being the Three D Way, the way that works is that we come to tea, will go into a room and were there at the same time in the same place. And that's how we work together on this four day reality, which we're moving into. What's more, the only thing that's really important is that we have this this shared space where we can co like home, but we don't necessarily have to be in that space at the same time, because there are new communication tools that support more soup, pianistic styles of communication. So the example is struck and having people you slept in those lovers and haters of slept but still a tibia it enables. Exp a SYNCHRONICITY COMMUNICATION So that's that's kind of the first thing just so set up the context. So we are able to empower people to have more control over their time in this four d future of work because they no longer need to be working as synchronise in us, a synchronous tick away as they cut their they used to in the three they will, and that in giving people power over their time has a profound impact. Extraordinary account impact on people's well being. The the old industrial thinking was that when you arrived at work, you clocked on and you stamped your card and he went from your time on company time. And then, at the end of the day, stamped a card. We went from company time. Back onto your time. Now that's just absurd. Contact you? No idea. You know that my time is no longer my time. It now owned by somebody else. It's like I'm going into servitude when I can't stand that card and then I'm out of another step and I'll get back to my time again. It's always my time, and it should never be anybody else's time and I should have control over my time. I should feel empowered with that time. And when that impound, when we take that away, that power away from people or when they give it up to a a company or entity that's very, very impactful on identity. Um, And then there's the obvious ripple effects that has in people's lives because that means having to make compromises that otherwise I maybe wouldn't want to make. I'm so, like you suggested. Maybe it's about carrying, Compare, insult, Children or other things. They're compromising those things that really matter to them because they're committing time and Teo on organisation, when really what they all they really committing is their attention and effort to deliver an outcome and work as work moves towards more towards that, then we can start to empower people more with the time. So I it's it's I think we're just scratching the surface. As you know, we work together on developing an app that empowered people have control over their time in the call centres, giving them the ability to make changes to their rosters using decentralised systems and organisation and virtual currencies. And it's amazing it's incredible and they the impact that that said on people's well being as we actually got, were so so taken by the storeys that we were hearing coming back from the from the experiments that we decided we needed to find a way to measure this. And we ended up using the work in and mental wellbeing school. And what we saw was a nearly 10 point up lift in mental self assess, mental and emotional well being on this w ay envious um ah school. And that's not a small lift on the WMDs. That's actually quite a significant uplift. So just by giving people back control over the time ability and make changes to the roster without having to get approval or talk to the organisation had this method impact on people's self assessment, a well paying. So it's crucially important. I hope that and shift this force shift, Teo Decentralised distributed. Working that's happening right now does extend beyond the concept of been telling people that have choice ever where they work to actually standing to give people more choice again when they work, and it's very good organisational reasons for that, to which is to do with krone biology and enabling people to actually do the types of work that they do best type of different types of day. And we're all different. So if you can empower people to make those choices. But for me, I get up at four in the morning and between 4 36 30 I have, you know, that's what that's A. That's what you call it calls month mode. I mean this great sort of highly focused monk mode and just smash it out on DH, then basically done a day's work in two hours, and then the rest of the day's this sort of stuff, which I love. So

Jay:   49:27
for those that want to demonstrate our evidence that what's happening right now is for the better, Andi may no be in every organisation on DH one of demonstrate that there's more value in thiss I. I'll come back to a different point, so I had trained for that. But for that one demonstrator evidence in value in this new way of working remotely, where there's more commitment, more intention behind, working remotely on working with more flexibility what obviously none of this was planned or set up so the ability to put things in place to measure the success of this possibly isn't there many organisations They're gonna just have to go off gut feel or some surveys at the end of next week on. But But what are some of the metrics or what? Some of the data points staff khun due to lead the way to illustrate this is more valuable for the organisation, for the employees and for the customer.

Tim:   50:21
Yeah, I'm I hope that when the panic of off the moment starts to settle down, when people constructor expect everybody's in. Um, everybody's reacting on making quick decisions because that's what I need to do, and that's politically okay. But my hope is in the next week or so that people do ask that question. So I talked with forced ourselves. We've been forced to conduct a massive experiment. What can we learn from this experiment? What can we What insights can we get and just are seen as questions is, is the starting point now some of things we would look at is ah, whether an organisation has never promoted school or engagement survey or some sort of it's it's sort of most often that most big companies do, and it's mainly big companies that kind of doing this. At the moment, they probably already have quarterly surveys or six monthly surveys to measure employee sentiment. Heisley. I would I would have the capability Teo, bring one of those forward and do it in the next couple of weeks and just see if there has been a shift and look at the verb items and what people are saying because ultimately, if employees are saying that they enjoy it, the happier you know, this is great. Um, the thing. Then you know you're on to something, then it's just about refining it.

Jay:   52:02
I'm pregnant. I have a really strong retrospective and talk to people that were cracking our

Tim:   52:08
language. Day beautifully. See,

Jay:   52:10
season knocked, you know, and the team I've written down a bit of a run sheet of sleep from a product coalition perspective moved to Europe. I was planning to do a European tour that obviously cut short, so I've been working remotely in isolation. The product coalition is maybe I'm very fortunate to have a strong community on slack, but I've written a bit of a run sheet of what I would do for anyone. New toe remote working more so in it when you're doing it five days a week. Like going pro with working remotely and no in an office. I want to bounce a few things that I just know it No, it down here and came to see if it triggers any other insights from you. So that's one of these in my I would. So I set the alarm. Get up When the alarm goes off shower, grab a coffee and eat properly for breakfast. Starting the digesters iWatch wood is if I take on, get on the train or tramp the nail. The key one for me on that is setting the alarm when you don't have a commute, Um, you tend to set the alarm for later. Um instead of, you know, making the most start ups in life yourself. Team, could you get before him? But e never commute. You might stay up later. You might get up later and so that you shed your can shift and you could start toe grab extra Netflix episode. Could you have gotten from you in the morning and then you do start to lose quality of sleep, etcetera. So any thoughts for advice with Because Teo getting a solid night's sleep and starting a day for for those working from home, too.

Tim:   53:52
Um, this is cop it. There's a popular idea that you can divide work goes into segregate er's and integrators so segregated people like that have work, has a separate part of a lot. It's very compartmentalised, and usually they and I have very little. They're for work from home has very little appeal for them. No liketo have workers. This kind of separate thing and then letting the rest of the office is is what it is. And the two down I've a lap, Um, and then there's integrated soon. Love the idea of working time. And, you know, I could probably describe myself as integrator on DH. I'm really happy for work. Tio kind of happen any time, anywhere, Any place like it, you know, it's it's I love my work. I love what I do, and if I'm really happy for it to kind of sort of coexist with everything else in my life, and so it's worth reflecting on that because I think the solution look answers the question he's dependent upon whether or not you need to grab your secret garden. The irony is that the segregated might have lists attraction to working from home and, given the choice would probably not do it. But right now is likely finding themselves having to do it. Why, says ironic, is because the cigarette is probably the person who is actually going to make it work in the most healthy way most easily because they're going to quickly establish those returns. They're going to set up their office so that it's separate from the house. That probably said that really nice. Sling me. I Sigurd died a change to have a really lovely setup disc of the off a guard at the workplace. It's no, they spice, and they're going to do the same at Hime. Um, they're going to establish the routines like you said, just naturally, because that's important to them so they can keep it to the line. But demarcation line really clean into them and everybody else in the castle. And so they're going to find the balance much more naturally, and they're going to create that down. What's much more naturally than you've been too great, so less likely to want a work from Heim, probably more likely to set it up properly naturally, without having to think about it too much. It's kind of intriguing. Where's the integrator? Somebody like me and just suddenly was talking before about the influx of information and that time could just disappear really quickly. When you're working from home, I can get up before him and still be Well, you know what it's time now. Deny. You know, it could be a clock or not, and I'm still going things that's not healthy. I look at my apple watch and the rings haven't even moved, You know, And I've been working for 12 hours is like If I was working in the office of a leading up against is between many groups that would have got my steps. I haven't even current quotes, so it's actually the integrate is the ones that love working from home and probably the ones that have to be more conscious of the sorts of things and suggestive.

Jay:   56:55
Yeah, I can see my good friend James Woodley on the live chat on YouTube here, and I know James actually has a commute in the morning. So even if that's a walk around the block at that's his commute. So you scratch me, Tio the fullest. Okay, this is Mei's. My five minute walk around the block when I get back. So I'm walking into the office now.

Tim:   57:21
James, I love it. I had a mom working for me on DH. She had ah, young family and a two year old who was very attached to her on DH. She had officer was separate from the house. And if Hood Child saw her go to the work, the child would just be banging on the door all day because I knew because the child knew Mom was in there. So what she used to do was get up. Election is going to work. Put the clothes on and leave on, walk around the block and say bye bye. See you later and danger and enter the office through the garage because you have an entrance through there so that you actually get to work and on and on and basically not be disturbed. So I'm eyes like it attacks. We haven't come up with anything. Family and work. Yeah.

Jay:   58:11
Yeah. So some of the other points are written down is around, giving people a call. Sometimes you can sit there for 6 to 8 hours and not speak to anyone or die, and it is quite often surprised me out. I can sit behind that computer and not not talk to anyone on DH. When I then go to speak to someone, it's almost like my voice box isn't working.

Tim:   58:34
E i o. This is another kind of meat busting, you know, the segregated and integrating sort of interesting one, considering what is less likely to be interested in working, trying to probably better suited to work from home. Now, quite healthy practises more easily. And then there's another myth out there, which is that extroverts are not suited to work from home introverts. It's perfect for them. Let them go on retreat to their cave and just you know, that's that's the critic environment. I love it. It's here and and actually it's the opposite. The introvert, Um, why don't we create a working for me when we're sitting at their first work from home programme? That's describing the sort of person I wanted and she went to high and she said You're looking for initiators enough like yes, that's exactly right. So the extroverts needs gets its energy from other people. They need to interact with other people and they'll feel the absence of those interactions so they will make the effort throughout the day. They will pick up the phone, they'll bring somebody. They'll chicken on people, though they'll create those human interactions which is so, so important for for our well being. Where is the introvert? Putting them into an office? Um, hi. I'm office, letting them retreat into their little kiw. He's actually probably the worst possible thing for them on DH. So they're not going to be initiated. They probably don't want to disturb that person or a better not reading them. I don't want Don't know what they're doing right now. You and they're going to be cautious and you will not make that not initiate those human interactions that we all need. So yeah, the moral of Storey Highland high, extroverted, segregate er's and you've got the perfect work from home Workforce.

Jay:   1:0:22
Next up, I've got on Arran contact people you wouldn't normally contact because you've got an opportunity to on by that I mean it might be you, Nan. You're on an old friend that you've been meaning, Teo, being a message to on Facebook and give him a call, but it actually opens up when you've not got a commute 20 minutes to two hours each day, you've got 20 minutes to two hours back, and that's a great time to live out some of your other values beyond work.

Tim:   1:0:50
Yeah, Yeah, that's a good tip. Nothing to add to that good justice. I'd do it.

Jay:   1:0:57
And that x one of God is, um I find that I don't drink as much water at home as I would do in the office. So ah, rock next to me. And when it's half empty, go on, fill it up. Because that also forces me to stand up and walk around because it's easy to be much more lethargic when working from home,

Tim:   1:1:16
getting healthy habits at time. It requires some self awareness. So you know the sort of mindful practises to catching yourself. Have I've been drinking border? Am I eating well? I mean, if you're really health conscious, working from home is probably your dream, because you could cook a really healthy meal for yourself every day. I love I love going. I love juicing like I love to replace meals with fresh juice, and I can be really difficult to do in the office to win away from the time it's It's a breeze. But what is also available to me home us next. So I that's that's a trap, you know, like the home can mean cooking what? Anything healthy meals that also can stacking all day ends which devil? I'm listening to him. Which shoulder on great with you on the water thing. I am? Yeah, absolutely great. It's just a It's just a really, really good good idea. I am. Yeah, Assuming I'm habit, I have bottles of water. I'm going all day.

Jay:   1:2:20
Similarly, with the supermarket situation right now in the chaos that is, their many may resort to getting deliverer or burrito. The fifth element. Your option, Agnes. Yeah, kid, keep self in cheque. If you kind and I'm not because you know, I it's easy to eat much heavier, larger mills on when they're being served up for you.

Tim:   1:2:44
If you're ready to great these aerial trips to watch out for make sure you get out, do some exercise, get your steps, get into some good routines and routines will actually help drive all those behaviours as well. Like you said, set the alarm so forth. If you get the routines right, they almost become the scaffolding for the rest of your day. So if you consider those retains in, you know, and there's lots of different ways of thinking about the an experiment tried different routines. Find what works for you on DH. Once you find one, you know, just just make that what it is, and you'll find that everything else kind of in falls in the place.

Jay:   1:3:21
Berlin and the last thing I've got. Here's our keep it area of what I take off during my day. I did know it's early on the for some reason, it can feel less rewarding. Working from home, you could get a lot more done sometimes, but you don't have a sense of achievement because, you know, talking in communicating as you're walking past people's deaths or over a coffee, except you're around your achievement. So keeping a note experience throughout the day so that you can reflect on I found Help me oh feel like I'm I'm completing what I'm setting out to achieve.

Tim:   1:3:53
Yes, but then you can also set up your space to create access different states of mind that probably couldn't. It's comfortably in an office environment like I have had. My mother was kind of like a therapist. Catch. In a way, it's behind my behind my desk and stuff. I'm I wanted to really access that kind of subconscious, that creative mental space. I can go and I can just get out. My chilli got Lima catch to put more wool of post at night, so I can just kind of get into that kind of really kind of slightly crazy creating vibe much more easily than I could in a conservative, working, varmint looking insurance company. So, you know, we weren't working in a place where you had sleep pods. It was quite conservative and so uniformly good. Unless it is mad, creative energies going, Um, it's certainly feel more comfortable doing that in my home that I do, you know, considerably working environment. So it's all about using the space, so it's such a great opportunity. I mean, they have this flexibility to design work in a way that works best for you. That's what it comes down to. Um, and it's and that is all about It's about health. It's about well being. It's about you bailed accesses other other states of mind. It's about just it's finding. I mean, I am. So maybe I substituted touch. I know we're probably gonna go over time, but my on my kind of routine that I've learned is I love Gap Brehme in the morning. That really works well for May I get up? I do. That's going to get it. I don't have my coffee. Sit down. I'll get into math mode and I just smash it out. Um, and then I will have some breakfast. Then I will get you know we'll take the dog for a walk for about an hour. Um, and that's a lovely time. Meditate in the park. It's wonderful comeback. I feel refreshed and is only then that I'll have a shower and I'm stuck in. My day starts again. Look, it's a whole brand new day already had one day. Now I've got another day on. At that point, I could come in and then everybody else is kind of work on DH so I can get in and do the kind of normal stuff. Interact with my work colleagues. I need to and and then by after lunch, I'm kind of, you know, I might go and have a bit of an afternoon nap, and that back then resets me again, and I'm back into work once more on that zits. And it's just it's just I was kind of Ivy's re six, once a

Jay:   1:6:27
member of

Tim:   1:6:28
the dog in the shower, the other ones you know after a nap and it's, Yeah, it just works. I could never do that in the office. It is not possible

Jay:   1:6:39
for me to him from the time I get a few years ago that year, we spent well over there. There's a point I bring down here that is always stuck with me. And it is that for anyone who's currently setting up remote working in Paris list after work remotely, be mindful that it's very different, saying a remote work, once a flexible work and intentional about that decision, are you empowering our staff to do what they do remotely? Are you now in power in your staff to do what they do with flexibility, and it's always stuck with me for many years.

Tim:   1:7:20
I The question is the intent of inspector intention again, Is the business sitting up? We might work to solve a business problem. Well, are there sitting that remote work to science solve a human problem? Yeah, and it's such a big difference in the intention. And if you're sitting it out to solve a business problem, then the chances are you've got blind spots that could result in your creating experiences for the employees that are unhealthy and unhelpful. If you're setting it up to credit to solve the human problems off, enabling people to leave belt healthy balance lives, then you're going to set it up for success. Um, now, if it's a business problem that gets you two started considering it fantastic because it made you getting heading in the right direction. But then bring the humanity and as quickly as possible and make the why you're doing it as much as possible about that about the human problem, not just the business problem and the the answers will will emerge and you know it'll it'll be a success.

Jay:   1:8:26
Thank you so much. for your time team. I've really enjoyed talking through so many points with regards to staying healthy, working world, creating value on DH, enjoying that hopefully only one listen to this takes some value and improves their practise off working flexibly or remotely. So. Thank you so much for Agnes at such short notice in the mist of all that's going on your time, too. Thank you.

Tim:   1:8:54
Next. I really enjoyed the conversation and really excited about way work is going in the future. It's It's an incredible time to be alive.

Jay:   1:9:04
Indeed, indeed, for those listening to the podcast, Thank you so much for tuning. This has been a very special episode on DH. Please Cheque out Product Coalition on your Favourite podcasts player, you'll find a whole heap of podcasts, Aziz said. Start on. We're product management community of half 1,000,000 readers, 6000 slack members on thousands of podcast listeners on Right now, I am meant to be travelling Europe, interviewing product leaders on to gain their insights and education and share that with the global community that will be done remotely now due to what's happening. So I'm gonna take away many learnings from the session. Thank you. Also listen to the podcast and I'll bring you represent very safe. Yeah,

Identifying opportunities to change the way we work
What are the insights of the distributed team at home
The risks and biases about working from home
What conversations must be between board members around the situation that happening now?
What should the CEO do regarding remote work and the current situation?
What are the signs people leaders should looking out for the employee's emotional state
Personal relationships between peers and the role of the team leader
The approach for people who want to "escape home by coming to the office"?
How can employers, leaders and businesses can change the ways they think about remote working?
What are some of the data metrics for the employers and the costumer that demonstrate benefits of working from home?
Going pro-working remotely
Remote work VS flexible work